Talk:Telepathy

According to the telepathy guide, ESP can't work the way it is described now. Kthxbye 12:35, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Well, the term 'surface thoughts' may imply enough of an understanding to not necessarily gain information the mind would not consciously reveal, right? Which implies the skill bonii of the power, but not that it breaks RP. Gurky Bogglewig 12:42, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Umh.. The telepathy guide states nothing at all can be read. -- Kthxbye 12:52, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Hmkay, I'm pointing the team's attention here. Hopefully the suggestions will produce a new definition we can add to the wiki. Gurky Bogglewig 03:29, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

Relating to spells that may be metagamed

Why is this even a problem? Look at the level 8 spell, Premonition. It says that the character can see a few moments into the future. The mage gains DR to represent that s/he kinda knows what is coming next. Nobody cheeses knowing what is about to happen, RPing that they should be able to burn arrows or bolts out of the air (for instance, during Ayrens funural - even though they could perhaps be able to do that in a PnP setting). This is almost the exact same thing.

Premonition - You know what is coming at you (but you don't) - This is represented by DR.

ESP - You read surface thoughts (but you don't) - This is represented by better social skills.

DMs are of course able to overrule this (bolded parts) in any given situation as is their perogative. -- Moredo - 16 September 2010.

The original purpose of the guide to telepathy was to avoid metagaming abuse for all powers. Kthxbye's concern was that the description of ESP allows for such abuse. Let us assume that this information is sufficient to avoid metagaming abuse, then. (Such as using ESP to learn the identity of a disguised person, claiming that their surface thoughts betray their identity). Gurky Bogglewig 04:00, 16 September 2010 (CDT)

Emotions as thought

Perhaps we should reword it then. I mean, it's clearly suggested that ESP gives you an advantage in terms of persuade, bluff, and intimidate, but not because one is aware of surface thoughts... why don't we change that to 'surface emotions'? This doesn't imply reading actual thoughts. Gurky Bogglewig 13:06, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

My suggestion is to use body language.. The description may be something like: "Focusing on body language, the psionicist is able to transmit the emotions he wants conveyed: he can result persuasive, intimidating or easy to trust because of how he acts with others. Also, he is able to tell other people's emotions by their body language, often predicting what they are going to do or tell, giving the feeling (if the psionicist wishes so) to have ESP powers to read their mind, when he is instead only paying attention." -- Kthxbye 02:41, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

I disagree - I think the wording of the telepathy guide allows for a reading of surface thoughts (or at least could be specifically tweaked to say so, given it is specifically states the ruling existing to prevent metagaming abuse. All we need to say is that ESP allows a *subconscious* reading of surface thoughts - which actually translates very well into the skill bonuses the power provides - the psion is able to be more persuasive etc. because they intuitively know the right things to say or the right way to say it. I feel very strongly that as this is a *telepathic* power, it should remain *telepathic* in description/effect. The key point of the guide is that information cannot be forcibly extracted, and this would match with that perfectly. (i.e. I agree with Gurky)

Added to that - Hala for one *does* have telepathy (mind-to-mind communication) through an IG mechanic; we might be better directed to implement a working telepathy that can't be metagamed rather than trying to de-telepathise telepathy. -- Calzier 15 Sept. 2010

(For Dreamangel) I think Calzier is spot on - we shouldn't be de-telepathizing telepathy. If anything needs a tweak, it's the Telepathy RP Guide. I agree that cheesing and metagaming needs to have some brakes put on it, but ESP without that element of surface reading is a bit silly.Gurky Bogglewig 11:18, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

Indeed, my concern is the possibility of abuse, especially during DM'ed sessions. Premotion and other divination spells in DM'ed events actually do allow to have glimpses of the future through DM tells. Leaving ESP as it is, players should be able to ask for surface thoughts of creatures, breaking the telepathy guide lines. Of course, we could just say ESP allows not for surface thoughts but for emotions, thing that would not allow for abuse (the psionicist roughly knows what individuals around him are feeling and adjusts accordingly, but won't be able to recognize anyone or get to know any information, while he could've through the use of surface thoughts). -- Kthxbye

Emotion is in integral part of our thought processes. That would imply that, should we reword ESP in terms of emotion, it remains a telepathy power.