Talk:Telepathy

According to the telepathy guide, ESP can't work the way it is described now. Kthxbye 12:35, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Well, the term 'surface thoughts' may imply enough of an understanding to not necessarily gain information the mind would not consciously reveal, right? Which implies the skill bonii of the power, but not that it breaks RP. Gurky Bogglewig 12:42, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Umh.. The telepathy guide states nothing at all can be read. -- Kthxbye 12:52, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

Hmkay, I'm pointing the team's attention here. Hopefully the suggestions will produce a new definition we can add to the wiki. Gurky Bogglewig 03:29, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

Relating to spells that may be metagamed

Why is this even a problem? Look at the level 8 spell, Premonition. It says that the character can see a few moments into the future. The mage gains DR to represent that s/he kinda knows what is coming next. Nobody cheeses knowing what is about to happen, RPing that they should be able to burn arrows or bolts out of the air (for instance, during Ayrens funural - even though they could perhaps be able to do that in a PnP setting). This is almost the exact same thing.

Premonition - You know what is coming at you (but you don't) - This is represented by DR.

ESP - You read surface thoughts (but you don't) - This is represented by better social skills.

DMs are of course able to overrule this (bolded parts) in any given situation as is their perogative. -- Moredo - 16 September 2010.

The original purpose of the guide to telepathy was to avoid metagaming abuse for all powers. Kthxbye's concern was that the description of ESP allows for such abuse. Let us assume that this information is sufficient to avoid metagaming abuse, then. (Such as using ESP to learn the identity of a disguised person, claiming that their surface thoughts betray their identity). Gurky Bogglewig 04:00, 16 September 2010 (CDT)

The description of ESP has been updated to reflect a more correct interpretation of how the skill bonuses are gained. It should not allow any kind of conscious mind-reading. TripleAught 11 October 2010

Emotions as thought

Perhaps we should reword it then. I mean, it's clearly suggested that ESP gives you an advantage in terms of persuade, bluff, and intimidate, but not because one is aware of surface thoughts... why don't we change that to 'surface emotions'? This doesn't imply reading actual thoughts. Gurky Bogglewig 13:06, 14 September 2010 (CDT)

My suggestion is to use body language.. The description may be something like: "Focusing on body language, the psionicist is able to transmit the emotions he wants conveyed: he can result persuasive, intimidating or easy to trust because of how he acts with others. Also, he is able to tell other people's emotions by their body language, often predicting what they are going to do or tell, giving the feeling (if the psionicist wishes so) to have ESP powers to read their mind, when he is instead only paying attention." -- Kthxbye 02:41, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

I disagree - I think the wording of the telepathy guide allows for a reading of surface thoughts (or at least could be specifically tweaked to say so, given it is specifically states the ruling existing to prevent metagaming abuse. All we need to say is that ESP allows a *subconscious* reading of surface thoughts - which actually translates very well into the skill bonuses the power provides - the psion is able to be more persuasive etc. because they intuitively know the right things to say or the right way to say it. I feel very strongly that as this is a *telepathic* power, it should remain *telepathic* in description/effect. The key point of the guide is that information cannot be forcibly extracted, and this would match with that perfectly. (i.e. I agree with Gurky)

Added to that - Hala for one *does* have telepathy (mind-to-mind communication) through an IG mechanic; we might be better directed to implement a working telepathy that can't be metagamed rather than trying to de-telepathise telepathy. -- Calzier 15 Sept. 2010

(For Dreamangel) I think Calzier is spot on - we shouldn't be de-telepathizing telepathy. If anything needs a tweak, it's the Telepathy RP Guide. I agree that cheesing and metagaming needs to have some brakes put on it, but ESP without that element of surface reading is a bit silly.Gurky Bogglewig 11:18, 15 September 2010 (CDT)

Indeed, my concern is the possibility of abuse, especially during DM'ed sessions. Premotion and other divination spells in DM'ed events actually do allow to have glimpses of the future through DM tells. Leaving ESP as it is, players should be able to ask for surface thoughts of creatures, breaking the telepathy guide lines. Of course, we could just say ESP allows not for surface thoughts but for emotions, thing that would not allow for abuse (the psionicist roughly knows what individuals around him are feeling and adjusts accordingly, but won't be able to recognize anyone or get to know any information, while he could've through the use of surface thoughts). -- Kthxbye

Emotion is in integral part of our thought processes. That would imply that, should we reword ESP in terms of emotion, it remains a telepathy power. Gurky Bogglewig 08:57, 16 September 2010 (CDT)

But in a DM'd event - a power can achieve whatever the DM wants it to - thus we can do (and have done) a lot more when a DM is around by 'stretching' the effect of the power to further the plot. Surely the main point of the guide is that it is a 'guide' and it is to stop griefing/harassing/metgaming when a DM is not present. Making it 'emotion' doesn't solve the problem - and might even make it worse: PC1 "I read your emotions", PC2: "no you don't", PC1: "I do, I have ESP and it says I does. You *have* to tell me" etc.

The absolutely simplest solution is to insert the word "subconscious" as I mentioned before. Worst that can do is: PC1 "I subconsciously read your thoughts", PC2: "Good for you; roll you skill check and I'll play along" PC1: "but I need to know your thoughts" PC2 "Ah.. you do, but subconsciously, so I couldn't possibly *tell* you, now, could I?"

Umh, I thought the "psionicists cannot extract anything from anyone's mind" was a hard rule. If DMs allow that, it is another matter. At any rate, even using the term "subconscious" would leave a lot of ground for metagaming. This is because subconscious have an impact on our behavior: if I know an information "subconsciously", I still have that, and it will modify how I act. An extreme example: I use ESP around a disguised spy/changeling/shaahesk transmutant: I will not know what they are, but subconsciously I will. This would mean that the character should find it a hard time believing them, as subconsciously he knows they are lying. Also, there are ways to let subconscious information flow and gain consciousness of the knowledge it holds. This means there would still be a possibility (OOC or IC) for transfer of information. That does not apply with emotions. In your example, PC1 could've answered "but if I don't know OOC, how can I adjust my character's behavior IC?". Now, I know I am going by extremes, but I would like to avoid the issue altogether, rather than just making it difficult to present. Also, I would usually think that not only ESP, but every spell/power/ability that affects other characters in a RP way needs a DM to be used, so without a DM, whichever will be the RP use of ESP, a psionicist won't be able to force anyone into telling him anything. I hope I managed to explain what I wanted to say.. :S -- Kthxbye 05:38, 19 September 2010 (CDT)

I think you're reading too much into 'surface thoughts' & 'subconscious' - we have the game mechanic of adjusted skill checks to cover the lack of OOC knowledge to guide IC behaviour, so long as the other player plays along. It would be in accord with the description to assume that the ESP-using psion's brain interprets the thoughts in his/her own language / frame of reference. For all we know, perhaps such thoughts are seen as images, as if looking from the target's eyes. So when you use the power you 'see' surface thoughts as imagined scenarios... sitting down to eat, killing the psion in front of them etc. I see no reason why any of this should 'unmask' a concealed character. So if the 'spy' has buried their identity deep and is good at what they do, none of their real identity will be reflected in their surface thoughts; if they are a pathetic attempt at being a spy, their thoughts will betray them - but that is a combination of the choice of the player of the spy and the pursuade, intimidate, bluff rolls of the psion - i.e. the information revealed is provided voluntarily by the target player, in accord with their RP choices. Anyone being a metagaming a$$ about it will probably be someone you don't want to be playing with anyway (i.e. metagaming is not allowed regardless; it is not an issue specific to telepathy) -- Cal